One Woman's Writing Retreat: Interview Noah Lukeman

NL: Each has its advantages and disadvantages. As an agent, you don't have final say to buy a book and you're also one step removed from the production process. But there are many advantages: if you're an editor and you want to launch an unknown writer's career, you basically have one shot, which is to try to convince your colleagues to let you buy it for your publishing house. If they don't like it, often you have to let it go, and that's it. If you're an agent, though, you are more involved in launching (and maintaining) a writer's career, because if one publisher doesn't like it, you can submit to another, and another. . . . Some books I've sold after 50 publishers turned them down. Also, it is the nature of the business that editors often move around a lot, and often editors buy one or two books from a writer and then quit a couple of years later and that can end their relationship with the author. As the agent, though, you stay with the author through a period like that and, if necessary, find him a new publisher. So, I guess what I'm saying is that the relationship with the agent is often more long-term than with the editor, and even though the editor is the one laying down the money, it is often the agent that is actually more responsible for launching the writer. This is especially true since many editors sit back and wait to receive submissions from agents, whereas many agents go out and search the magazines or journals for writers, making them one step closer in the discovery process. And as an agent I still do a lot of editing (if I choose); in fact, some books I've sold were never touched by the editor, so the edit I gave them was the last one it had before going to press. So, as you can see, the line between agents and editors can blur.

I say all this in retrospect, but at the time I didn't really know all this--I only suspected it. What spurred me to switch was three months of working in editorial at Delphinium Books, under an editor named Bill Thompson. Bill is a great man and as an editor had been the first one to discover both Stephen King (at Doubleday) and John Grisham (at Wynwood Press). But now Bill was older and was not in the most opportune situation career-wise, and it made me realize that, often, all editors get for bringing in a great writer is a pat on the back, whereas, if he had been the agent for those two writers, his life would have been dramatically different.

NL: I get in around 10, answer 30 e-mails, 10 voice mails and 5 faxes from the night before and then try to remember what I had planned to do for the day! If I am doing a submission for a new book, that will consume an entire day. If not, I often have lunch with an editor from 1-3. I have a lot of meetings in the afternoons, if producers or authors are in town and want to stop by the office, etc. I spend time following up on books I have on submission (as much as 20 at any one time) and maintaining problems that arise from books I have sold (about 100), i.e. authors not delivering on time, editors not liking their books, collaborations gone awry, foreign rights, serial rights, film rights, etc. I spend a lot of time talking to my lawyer about new and old contracts, etc. What I almost never do in the office is read. I usually get out of here around 7 or 8 pm and then go home and try to unwind for an hour, and then read. My windowsill holds about 20 manuscripts across and it is almost always full, not to mention stacks of magazines I should be reading--and of course not to mention the 5,000+ unsolicited manuscripts that come in . . . which we'll answer in the next question.

CT: When we send a manuscript to an agent, who actually reads it first? (The agent or someone hired as a reader?)

NL: An unsolicited manuscript gets read by an intern. She makes two piles, "No" and "Maybe." This pile is then checked by a senior agent working for me, and she makes the final decisions.

CT: We often hear we can't get published without an agent, and an agent won't take an interest in our work unless we've been published. Any truth to that?

NL: Yes, a lot of truth. I wish I had an easy answer, but I don't. If a writer queries me about a novel, I look at his credits. If he has no credits whatsoever, I am extremely wary--and almost always with good reason. But you have to understand that I routinely receive manuscripts from writers who have published 3 or 4 novels with major houses and still need an agent, often because their sales records have dropped and no one wants that next book, and often I even turn these writers down. So, if even writers with great credits are in the pool, you can imagine how writers with no credits will often get glossed over without a book credit. Other things one might look for are MFA credentials, endorsements, magazine credits, etc. Often, good credentials means good writing: if a writer has an Iowa MFA, endorsements from 5 great writers, publications in The New Yorker, etc., his writing is going to be good; but not always . . . and yet, I often advise writers not to enter MFAs if it means going into debt and I have offered representation to novels whose writers had no credits whatsoever, simply because I loved the story or the writing; so there is hope, although slim. Ultimately--and this is why I wrote The First Five Pages--the answer is to develop your craft, to become better and better; once your writing is there, magazines will want to publish you, other writers will want to endorse you, award committees will want to choose you, and agents will come after you.

CT: You cover so much territory in The First Five Pages: characterization, style, viewpoint, comparison, a great deal of emphasis on dialogue, and you even discuss the musicality of prose. Why no chapter on plot?

NL: I did this to emphasize my main point, which is that writers should worry about their craft before plot. I can't tell you how many queries I receive where writers emphasize what great stories they have; that may be so, but nevertheless, if the craft isn't there, if the execution isn't up to par, it doesn't matter. It's like someone who has a great idea for a song, but doesn't know how to play the piano. Plot is important, but often great stories grow out of great characters and settings, and so I'd prefer writers consider these things first. In my next book, I might discuss things like plot, suspense, etc. (but we'll cover this later).

CT: Please define a term for us, for there is much confusion: what exactly is women's fiction?

NL: Generally, this means a novel that is driven by a female protagonist and is primarily a story about that woman and/or women in general, i.e. a novel that would, theoretically appeal more to women than men. I've never liked this strict regimentation either and have always felt that good fiction is good fiction, period; apparently, though, many publishers want to categorize. In a sense, this is handed down from the bookstores, who now have strict categorization, and demand this from publishers' sales reps, who in turn demand it of editors, who in turn demand it of agents, who in turn demand it of writers. Another reason is because probably 70% of editors these days are women and I suppose this is what they want to read.

CT: Have electronic books and print-on-demand changed the publishing industry in any way? How do you feel about electronic books?

NL: In theory, yes; in practice, right now, very little. E-book type deals are not that common and when they happen are often for negligible amounts of money. Print-on-demand outfits are popping up and that's nice, but having your book available is not going to make it any more of a hit than it is right now, sitting in your drawer. To truly revive it, you need to put money into marketing, etc.

I personally think e-books will be a big hit for textbooks and the like, but will never have that kind of impact on more leisurely type books--and will certainly never touch coffee table books. This might change in 10 years, but I doubt it.

NL: I advise clients to market their work any way they can; most books, once published--even with big houses--will often get close to no attention from the publisher. That's a reality. You just need to face it from the beginning and be prepared for it, instead of complaining about it, which nearly every writer does. The Web is a cheap and savvy way to promote your book if you know what you're doing. Building a site is a good start, but again, people aren't going to come to the site just because it's there.

NL: Yes, sometimes. Because it's faster and easier. Most often, though, I use the Web as a tool to find out how to contact someone I've read about in the outside world.

CT: Since your agency does not charge a reading fee, how do you feel about agents who do?

CT: Beginning writers are often so desperate, they sometimes fall victim to literary scams. Any tips on how to avoid that?

NL: Yes. Talk to people in the know. Don't pay any fees. Read "10 Signs of a Scam Book Doctor" for free on PrePub.

NL: It has info on over 1,000 agents and their recent book deals (some as recent as last week) so you can do a search by agent, editor, genre, publisher, etc. and it is a wonderful way to dig up hard to find information. It's $120 a year, so it's not cheap, but it is cheap as far as these types of services go (they average like $400 a year). Incidentally, I just sold the entire site, so it will be under new management as of January; I can't say who yet, but it will continue running as before.

CT: I read in the acknowledgement section of Gene Hackman's and Daniel Lenihan's engrossing book, Wake of the Perdido Star, how grateful the authors felt for your guidance and faith in their work. How did that relationship occur?

NL: I read a serious article by Dan in Natural History about his diving and work as an underwater archeologist. I wrote to him and asked if he'd considered a book, and he said yes, he was working on it, and the two of us began a back and forth with edits, and then in the middle of that, he mentioned he was working with Gene on the novel and asked if I'd like to see it. I said yes, warily, since I'd had other celebrities contact me before with fiction and it often wasn't good and I'd had to say no. But I was delighted to see that this manuscript was truly wonderful from the start. I was shocked. I was also impressed that Gene had truly written it himself (he and Dan alternated chapters). I gave them some edits and the three of us had some back and forth, and then when it was ready, I shopped it around and sold it.

CT: Tell us about that "first (terrible) novel" you wrote when you were 16 that you mentioned in the dedication in The First Five Pages. What became of the novel? Do you still write fiction?

NL: I wrote 4 novels over a period of about 10 years. Although the third one got me high honors at Brandeis for my thesis, I was never happy with any of them. I put them all in a drawer and that's where they sit. I am a believer in not showing anything until you're ready, even if it means 10 years or more, which is why I don't have that much patience for first novelists who show their work after 3 months and then are angry if I turn it down. Wagner, after all, spent 30 years on Parsifal--although I suppose it's a different world now. Yes, one day I will turn back to fiction, but it's awfully hard with all these other voices in my head. I think I'd need a period of at least a few weeks of not reading any manuscripts at all before I could begin with a quiet mind. Also, I've been sidetracked with writing non-fiction, i.e., The First Five Pages.

CT: You thank your mother for her support and mention she had an agent. What does she write?

NL:One of the reasons I became an agent is because, growing up, I watched her have many top-notch agents and none were ever able to sell her work. Now that I'm an agent, I've gotten her six book deals in the last three years, so I'm happy about that. In the popular psychology/relationships area, she has Why Men Leave (Putnam/Perigee), and is at work on What He Can't Tell You (and Needs to Say) (Putnam/Perigee); in the health area, she has Journey Through Illness and Beyond; in the spirituality area, 365 Ways to Give Thanks (One for Every Day of the Year). She also has these books coming out in Germany, France and Poland (with more countries pending). Believe it or not, though, she is primarily a playwright!

CT: I noticed several Lukemans on your site's client list (on the non-fiction page). Are authors Josh and Alex Lukeman related to you?

NL: Josh is my oldest brother and Alex is an uncle (my father's brother) who lives in Colorado. Incidentally, Daniel Myerson is also an uncle (my mother's brother). So, there have been a lot of family book deals in the last few years!

CT: You must possess a great deal of self-confidence to be in your profession. Do you ever have any doubts or fears?

NL: Financially, being an agent (especially having your own company) can be scary, since I need to sell at least a million dollars of books a year to just break even.

Book-wise, though, I'm never really plagued by doubts or fears. I am confident in my tastes, so if I reject something I don't think twice about it, and if I take something on, I believe in it even if 50 editors say it's worthless. You have to be totally confident to withstand that, which isn't always easy; indeed, often agents feel the rejections more than the writers. Starting my own agency at 22 wasn't easy. That took a lot of confidence, and I don't know in retrospect if I would have done it again. But I did, and now I'm 26 and have been through the fire--in the last four years I've weathered nearly every tough publishing scenario possible--so, really, very little phases me now.

I think it's been more of an effort to remain confident because of my age than because of my books. People are always suspicious of me because I'm only 26, as if I'm just starting out. But what they don't seem to realize is that I sold one million dollars worth of books by the time I was 22, and now it's four years later.

NL: I've been involved in acting for the last few years, which I like, even if I have very little time for it; getting up in front of 50 people every week keeps you on your toes, and having an actor's perspective on a dramatic scene has taught me things about writing I couldn't have fathomed otherwise.

CT: In my opinion, The First Five Pages is one of the best books on technique I've ever read and I am advising everyone I know who takes their writing seriously to read it. Not only are you a good teacher, you possess an eloquent voice. Any plans to author more books?

NL: Thank you very much; that's kind of you and I'm glad it's been of help. Right now, I'm thinking of The Next Five Pages, since there's so much I can still say that wasn't in the first book: that chapter on plot, chapters on suspense and timing, on advanced characterization and setting tricks, on more subtle dialogue issues, like deliberate repetition, the delayed response, etc. I'm also toying with the idea of narrative non-fiction.

CT: If you could represent any author from any time period, whom would you choose and why?

NL: Kafka. I love all his work, especially his more obscure pieces. He's in vogue today, especially on college campuses, but most have never really read him, usually they just stop with Metamorphosis. But The Castle is so long and strange and crazy. . . . It's beautiful. I also love Moby Dick, which again I don't think many have really read, and would like to have represented Melville. I also love Flannery O'Connor. I think I'll stop here. (I'm already cheating!)

Catherine Tudor founded One Woman's Writing Retreat in 1996 in order to create a network for writers at all stages in their careers. She is the managing editor and webmaster of One Woman's Writing Retreat. Read more about her here.