Interview
Noah Lukeman
Author of The First Five Pages and The Plot Thickens
Part II, 2003
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Noah Lukeman "In his book THE FIRST FIVE PAGES, Noah Lukeman… gave writers a great gift. Now, in THE PLOT THICKENS, he shows writers how to build stories in which the plot emerges from fresh, alive, and intense characters. Both beginners and more advanced writers will find many wonderful, thought-provoking concepts and approaches here to help them hone their craft." -- James Frey, author of How to Write A Damn Good Novel and The Key. "THE PLOT THICKENS is full of practical common sense about how to write fiction and answers many of the difficult questions first novelists ask themselves." -- Michael Korda, author of Queenie, The Fortune and Making the List. "Brilliant. It literally gears a person up to writing big-themed, deep, humorous, and varied fiction. Personable, buoyant, and very wise." -- Carol Bly, author of Beyond the Writers’ Workshop. Noah Lukeman’s bestselling book The First Five Pages was praised by the Detroit Free Press as "most useful in its guidance on preparing and submitting your work," and Kirkus Reviews called it an "intelligent and entertaining instruction" that "should be read by all novice writers--and by those whose books are already published but who intend to write more." The First Five Pages has now become a required text in the writing curriculums of universities across the country. In THE PLOT THICKENS: 8 WAYS TO BRING FICTION TO LIFE (St. Martin's Press, July 2002), Lukeman expands on how to better succeed in the writing craft. As a Manager in the New York office of Artists Management Group, Michael Ovitz’ multi-talent management company, Lukeman heard thousands of book pitches a year. Often the stories sound great in concept, but never live up to potential on the page. THE PLOT THICKENS explains to writers the importance of looking at the bigger picture in terms of heightening suspense and conflict. Lukeman’s approach is to show how plot grows out of character development. Accessible with a warm and conversational tone, Noah’s book on plot writing supplies readers with innovative principles, techniques, and numerous thought-provoking exercises. Noah Lukeman has extensive experience in the publishing world as an agent, editor, and founder of PrePub.com, one of the first publishing rights Web sites. He lives in New York City. Unlike other dry, academic texts on writing, THE PLOT THICKENS offers valuable, down-to-earth advice in an entertaining format. It is sure to be treasured by aspiring writers everywhere.
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CT: You marketed The First Five Pages on the Internet. Did you receive a good response from your efforts? Any lessons learned from working on the Web?
NL: Yes, I learned a lot from marketing The First Five Pages on the Web. This was a few years back, so the Internet wasn't quite as evolved or ubiquitous as it is now. It was a great learning experience, both as an author and as an agent.
In general, it seems people on the Web are more receptive to review or excerpt a book. It is much easier to forward information--and much information gets logged on search engines--so information tends to spread more easily, faster, and to stay around longer. I think The First Five Pages ended up being featured or mentioned on something like 100 Web sites. I've lost track at this point. It's hard to say what the direct effect is on sales, but it adds up.
Having a dedicated Web site for a book is also a good idea. It can be done quickly, easily--if you know Microsoft FrontPage ®, cheaply--and comes in handy when referring media, or for handling author feedback.
E-mail, if handled properly, is also effective. The First Five Pages reached #9 on Amazon.com, and this was the direct result of an e-mail they sent to their customers--on their own volition--recommending the book.
CT: Why did you write The Plot Thickens: 8 Ways to Bring Fiction to Life?
NL: The First Five Pages was primarily a book on style. Very much in the vein of Elements of Style, although hopefully not as dry. It is essentially a book for beginners, and limits itself to what it sets out to do--talk about style and what might get you rejected immediately by an agent or editor--so, by design, there were many times when I stopped myself from getting deeply into the bigger issues. The First Five Pages talked about what not to do, but I found myself wanting to talk about what to do, wanting to get into deeper discussions about things like "How do I create suspense?" "How do I create conflict?" "What is the nature of the character's journey, and why is it necessary?" These questions are important, and were out of the realm of The First Five Pages--thus, The Plot Thickens.
Even when I was writing The First Five Pages, I knew at the time there would be another book. I just wasn't sure if I wanted to write it. I finished writing The First Five Pages in 1998 (it didn't publish until 2000), and spent 3 years mulling over my ideas for The Plot Thickens. When I felt ready, I set them down.
I also wrote The Plot Thickens because the following questions gnawed at me, and I wanted to grapple with them in a book: "How is it that so many concepts sound great when they are pitched, but when you read them on the page--or watch them on the screen--they fall apart? What is it that happens between concept and execution? If plot is not just about concept, then what else is it about? What sustains a plot, brings it to life? What are the anchors of plot?" (In fact, the working title of the book was "The Anchors of Plot.")
I also wrote The Plot Thickens for the same reason I wrote The First Five Pages: I wanted to give back to writers. It is frustrating to read thousands of manuscripts as an agent and to see the same mistakes and to not have the time to answer each one personally. I hoped to do so en masse in The Plot Thickens.
CT: Your mother, Dr. Brenda Shoshanna, is a psychologist and psychotherapist who has written best-selling books in her field. She is also iVillage's "Relationship Saver" where she provides a weekly column, live chat, and a message board where she answers questions. Growing up with her must have given you a unique perspective on how the human mind works, and thereby how fictional characters might develop and relate to one another. In the dedication, you say you began writing your first chapter when you "set down some thoughts on plot for her sake alone." What did you learn about writing fiction from working and living with your mother?
NL: From my mother I learned to never give up, and to never let rejection get you down. She spent 30 years writing before she had her first book deal. Over the last seven years, she's finally had five book deals in the US and 10 more overseas, I am happy to say. Her new book, Zen and the Art of Falling in Love, will be published by Simon & Schuster next Valentine's Day.
CT: Are you still taking acting classes? Did the theater teach you anything new about writing?
NL: Yes, over the last few years I've acted in about a dozen independent films. I find time here and there, although it is very difficult, and I can't always accept roles because of scheduling constraints. But it is one of the best things I could do as a writer and as an agent, since it gives you an entirely new perspetive on the written word. As an actor you memorize, and suddenly every word has tremendous value, since you must commit it to memory. From that experience, you go back to being a writer and realize how much more of a responsibility you have to not allow a single extraneous word. You also learn how different words sound when you speak them aloud as opposed to reading them on the page; you also learn pacing from an entirely different perspective: as a writer, a scene might be going well on the page, but as an actor, it might be faltering, even dull. Again, this forces you to go back as a writer and consider how your scenes might play out-from a pacing perspective--on the stage or screen, not just on the page.
CT: Since you emphasize characterization, how would you advise a writer who is compelled to adhere to a strict formula or story outline? Should a writer be concerned when a character takes over and the work flows with a life of its own, digressing from the author's original intent?
NL: I advise writers to not confine themselves to adhering to a strict formula. Creative writing is not a science, and can not be perfectly formulated or outlined in advance. At the same time, it is a good idea to have some idea of where you'd like your work to go, how you'd like it to advance--as long as you also give yourself the freedom to stray if need be.
If a character takes over, the writer shouldn't be concerned--he should be happy. It is a sign that the character is coming to life. In fact, this reminds me of a quote in The Plot Thickens from Graham Greene: "The moment comes when a character does or says something you hadn't thought about. At that moment he's alive and you leave it to him." Similarly, in acting, occasionally moments come on stage when you're really into a scene and something happens and you suddenly forget lines you'd said a million times. They say that's a good thing--a sign that you are actually in the moment. The phenomenon of your characters taking over reminds me of this.
CT: When you first owned Lukeman Literary Agency, you represented many award-winning authors. After you sold your company to AMG, did you work closely with the film industry? How did your job description change from our last interview? What did you gain from that experience? Where are you working now? How do you foresee your future?
NL: I still represent many award-winning authors. In fact, last year alone I represented a Pulitzer Prize winner, a National Book Award Finalist, two Edgar Award Finalists, a Pacific Rim Finalist, several New York Times Notable Books of the Year, and 2 New York Times Bestsellers. I never formally sold my company to AMG. It was simply a one year "Affiliation". I had a good year there, learned a lot about corporate culture, and then left on good terms. Now I am back running my own independent agency. When I was there, my job description hardly changed at all. I was doing the same thing as I did on my own. My contact with the film side was minimal. I see my future clearly, which is to remain an independent literary agency. I have now seen both sides of the game--big and small--and am happy being on my own.
CT: Are there any more technique books underway?
NL: Possibly a third book, on dialogue. But I haven't the time right now, and that would be at least a few years off.
CT: Do you imagine you will ever return to writing fiction? Why or why not?
NL: I have no desire. At one time in my life it interested me, but not anymore. Any creative writing I do (if any) will be channeled to books on writing (like The Plot Thickens), perhaps to another form of non-fiction, or perhaps to the screen.
The Lukeman Interviews:
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Copyright (c) by Catherine Tudor, 2006. Catherine Tudor founded One Woman's Writing Retreat in 1996 in order to create a network for writers at all stages in their careers. She is the managing editor and webmaster of One Woman's Writing Retreat. Read more about her here. |
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